Charger depower?

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Charger depower?

Postby Taneli » September 2nd, 2010, 7:27 pm

Hi,

I'm a new Charger 10 & 15 owner from Finland. I used to own a Phantom long time ago for snowkiting, but for a few years I've used SLE tube kites on snow and water. Today I had my first chance to start "charging" and there was enough wind for the 10m2. Actually the session was a bit scary... With the clamcleat the depower range seems to be quite large, but in gusts I was really missing the ~100% depower of SLE kites. Especially I had the problem that this kite flies and turns so fast but doesn't provide 100% depower, which means that when turning or accidentally oversteering the kite it generates a huuge amount of pull :o I felt that it is quite easy to oversteer the kite, it somehow has a tendency to quickly turn up/backwards towards the zenith (perhaps related to the autozenith feature?). Btw. I had all the straps loose for maximum depower, VPC3 larkshead in the 2nd knot (from the kite).

I'm sure it just takes some time to get used to the characteristics of ARC and their perhaps a bit indirect feeling. I'm still interested in hearing what do you people think about Charger's depower (especially the small sizes), and would you have any suggestions for riding technique or kite adjustments?

Cheers,
Taneli
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby voodoospirit » September 2nd, 2010, 9:16 pm

like u said, u used SLE....
PL kites are like C-shaped LEI....u edge with the board to control the power of the kite like a Fuel, torch, vegas..not pushing the bar like a SLE or a bow kite....u need to think C-kite.
the bar control is more to put the kite in the specific spot of the window ( despite it still depower the kite if u push out).
i use a synergy12 and i handle it as far as its counterpart LEI for the same wind range.... 12 synergy for 9/10 SLE LEI (i reach the same top range, or close to but i have all the straps tight) . the control is different, that s all. i edge with the board and use less with the bar control...if u want more a SLE behaviour u need to go to flysurfer.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Taneli » September 4th, 2010, 12:18 pm

Thanks voodoospirit 8-) I have also one 16.5m2 traditional C-kite, and with that I've learnt to manage the power by edging just fine. My first experience with 10m2 Charger just was that with small fast kites this kind of power management could be more dangerous than true depower offered by SLE kites (although not meaning that you can blindly trust SLE depower either). As I said already, I'm sure I will get used to my Chargers in a couple of session (for instance start trusting the autozenith feature instead of being worried or afraid of kite being in the zenith like with SLE..). Perhaps I was just expecting a little more depower via pushing the bar.

But could you still enlighten me why do you keep the straps tight in the top end winds? The manual suggests that the kite has better depower with the straps loose. Perhaps the flying characteristics are better or more suitable for your style with straps tight and the depower is still sufficient for you?
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby voodoospirit » September 4th, 2010, 5:35 pm

i use this kite for snowkiting and kitesurfing. i keep the tip straps tight for a sharp turn when climbing hills (kitelooping the kite for hill climbing) so i kept that set up on water ( i might lose some upwind efficiency tho)..
for the middle strap, i got used to ride powered with my speed3 15, so the rough power of the PL dont mind me much, it s less confortable with the straps in but i don t mind much, i should try with the middle strap more loose but i like to have my kite more "rigid"
in gusty winds conditions( mountain lake or bad snowkite winds) , i set the middle strap more loose so the kite can "eat" the gust more easely and i dont get shaked with a too rigid kite.

the only problem i have , atm, is the low end of the kite on water , i need to work it a bit too much and my shoulders dont appreciate that anymore ( i might go for some flysurfer for that, easier to park at the low end), i dont have any problem in middle/high wind range.

pushing the bar, depowers the kite but over time , not instantly like LEIs, i edge the board to compensate ( i do it without thinking actually now), my depower is the board, with my flysurfer, my depower is the bar. 2 different philosophy. pretty much the same difference between a C-kite and a bow and the explanation why people using bows/hybrids, have some hard time getting used with C kites.
i trust the autozenith a lot but in very gusty wind , in which i control the kite like it would be a LEI (gusty winds: usually the PL kite opens up or flatten, drift in the window, get back its shape and powers up to the edge/zenith). the autozenith saves 90% of the crashes, i took the use (habits?) to drop the bar and get into turtle mode in case of problem ( hand on the QR), consequences: the kite depowers, eigther crash into the water ( if the LE was towards the ground, if i have the time i just give a tip on the bar to put the LE at least horizontaly so the kite can stay in the air) or will slowly go back to the zenith, depowered and stay there.
PL kites learnt me to drop the bar at once in case of troubles, drop the bar, focus on the problem or the board, leave the kite lives its own life above u ( well in gusty conditions, u might want to control it still)

most of the LEi riders think i m crazy when i have my kite at the zenith depowered, catching my board near trees, climbing a ladder to get out of the water ( lake shore with swimming area (deserted) because they really don t understand how stable and depowered is the kite ( not gusty conditions of course and not at the top range of the kite), they just have no clue....they think their LEi are stable....i got used to those looks at me :)

i also use the autozenith ability to swim back directly upwind to get my board back instead of body dragging ( way more faster, a taf more physical tho), usually i set the kite on the suicide leash and it will follow me while i m swimming ( i trimm the kite all the way to kill the autozenith traction to the lowest it can)

sorry for the english, i m a bit rusty at it when i have to make long sentences....
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Airxpress » September 15th, 2010, 7:19 am

@ voodoospirit: I've read your post with a smile, because i've reconized exasctly your description i.c. with LEI ans SLE feeling. Also your auto zenith description is very similar towards mine :)
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Ian Beasley » September 16th, 2010, 8:59 pm

Fuel flies just like a Syn, Fuel slightly heavier on the legs but lighter on the arms :)
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby maddy » September 17th, 2010, 8:13 am

after the season on chargers (me and others) I would say it has lost the C behaviour and works quite similar to SLE kites. No more edging needed (a little with tigth straps) and efficient depowering with the bar control.

That's why classic ARC riders need quite few days with the CH to start getting some feeling and improve performance.
Much easyer approach for pump riders wich are used to that and to the ligth pressure on the bar.

Not complete depower but nothing to compare with Venoms or similar.
Never rode a Synergy myself but people that knows Synergy is telling me that is something in between.

To ride with the edging technique on Chargers it takes to trim depower strap and settings to power and set the bar stopper (new on navigator bars) close to you (short throw) . Then you can feel the classic ARC behaviour.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Taneli » September 24th, 2010, 7:44 pm

After a loong break I yesterday had a chance to go kiting, this time with the 15m2 CH. Now I was happy with the CH depower and behavior in general. So I guess my problem really was related to the smaller (quicker) kite generating unwanted power when steering it a bit unprecisely (when instant SLE-like depower would have been forgiving). One positive observation was that CH 15m2 seemed to have pretty much the same pop for jumping as tubes. And it was really flying quite fast!

Only thing that still annoyed me was that sometimes the kite easily turned a bit too much upwards, becoming quite unresponsive for a moment (flies up/back towards the zenith) and loosing some of its power (and shape). This seemed to happen especially after jibing, after the first downstroke in new direction. Well I'm already learning to avoid that, but it is a bit annoying feature. That's just an ARC newbie observation again..
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Albatross Mark » October 31st, 2010, 8:22 pm

If you are a beginner with old Non=VPC kites 8m Vortex,10m Vortex, 10m Venom1,13m Venom 2 my advisor says STAY with SAME style in larger kites like Venom2 16m. HOW about A15m Syn and 19mCharger and REMOVE the VPC Bridal??? Is VPC similar idea as some bars that pulley the steering lines Your cutting bar pressure down but need more steering movement/ So FEEL will be similar to old models if you remove VPC .Have quiver that Feels very similar and models that are slow and stable at high winds :Vortex Medium turner like Synergy for medium size and faster like Charger in light winds. Albatross Mark
Albatross is a huge seabird that soars the waves and winds of the high seas mostly in the roarimg 40's. Albatross Mark tries to mimmic this bird using the following kites: 8m Vortex,10m Venom,8m P3 FS,10m North Rebel ,10,12,15, 19m Psycho 4 FlySurfer
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Kamikuza » November 1st, 2010, 12:16 am

Removing the bridles is a dumb idea IMO cos they add a lot to the kite ... PL wouldn't have put them on if there wasn't a good reason ;)

... took my 19m Synergy out in the tail end of the typhoon last week, wind was forecast as 22 knots and up :D after flying the Speed 2 and Crossbow for so long, took me a bit to get back into the arc groove ... lamented the lack of park'n'ride low end but once I got the hang of it again, it was good!

Very stable kite, I didn't notice any problem with depower, although being a sometimes landboarder I guess I'm used to having to just run on for a bit to get speed & kite under control ... got hit a couple of times by big gusts but the kite handled them well, giving a good pull but allowing me to edge hard and push us into the wind till it passed. The few locals who were there - one started on a 15m Bandit but came in looking like he shit his pants then switched to an 11 like everyone else, except for Grandad who was on a 9 and was over-powered ...

Plan on doing the same today too :D might try the 15 this time though :o
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 4th, 2010, 10:50 pm

I agree with Kami. If you want a an Arc to fly like an old Arc then ride old Arcs. The VPC added a lot of performance to twinskins and helps elliminate alot of traits that more aggressive riders found undesirable in Arcs.

There's been discussion that the Charger has pushed the envelope of Arcs too far and frankly I find that to be completely ridiculous as well as a gross generalization. Not everyone riding Arcs is out cruising , some riders want a kite that has a bit more agressive nature. I think people have to step back and assess thier riding and kite handling abilty before they start taking high performance kites and castrating them.

To be fair I do think that the Charger is beyond the abilty level of a lot of riders and I think it's unfortunate that it is the only Arc in the Peter Lynn lineup these days. They should have multiple levels of Arc for various rider needs and capabilties. But to try to kill what makes the Charger what it is smacks of "If it's too loud you're too old." =)

I'd be happy to trade a Venom 1 for a Charger if anyone doesn't want one. You just let me know.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby daves » December 5th, 2010, 1:01 am

I also do not believe the charger pushes the envelope for arc design, however, I do think it is possible that some design components may not be completely compatible. Are the new profiles working correctly with the old strap adjustment system? Are the old alu spars stiff enough for the longer tip length? Are 2 inflation ports sufficient? Do the same design concepts work across the entire range of kite sizes? Are there new concepts that could be implemented?

It's common with many first design versions (not just kites). You have to put something out there. I have not been on my chargers enough yet, but I have experienced some desirable characteristics and some undesirable characteristics. Overall, I am happy with the direction of the charger and hopeful that development continues.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 5th, 2010, 12:43 pm

I agree, the Charger is just another evolutionary step in Arc design. As with all developmental phases of anything there are going to be benefits and drawbacks depending on who's flying it and what thier tastes and abilty level is. Perhaps someday there will be a variation of Arc design that has all the high performance aspects of the Charger but can be easily tuned down to be more beginner friendly. That being said, it would probably be easier to just make a beginner model.

It's my understanding that a lot of people that have issues with Chargers share some common traits....

1)They have very little expirience with Chargers or Arcs in general and get bummed when it doesn't fly like the kites that they're used to.
2) They have expirience with Arcs but are used to the slower handling and lazy "Park and Ride" quality of Arc kites. When on the Charger with its demand for higher level of input and need to be flown agressively they get turned of.
3) They're flying the Charger on their" XYZ "bar. You can't just fly the kite on any bar out there without some serious bar tuning. The Navigator bar is unlike all PL bars to this point and it's driving an Arc that is different than all others. If people insist on riding a different bar they should confirm all dimensions of the Navi bar and tune thier bar accordingly. Not to say there isn't room for change there but you have to have a baseline that works to start with.
4) They mess with the internal settings before actually trying to fly the kite at the stock settings. The stock settings are where Pepijn designed the Charger to fly. Adjustment beyond that point is done either for personal preference (because you want the wing to do something specific) or because of conditions. For my needs I ride the setting full loose. It gives me the best well rounded flight characteristics I could ask for. I say stop reading and listening to everyone else and just try it. Like Yeager says "Never believe anything anyone ever tells you about an aircraft." Different kites do different things for different people.

There's alway room for improvement for sure. But the Charger is a nice kite and will do almost anything anyone could ask of a kite. I ride in an area that used to be dominated by Ozone and Flysurfer and now most of the people I ride with ride some flavor of Arc. Why? because in the hands of a good rider they tend to outperform the Flysurfers and Ozones. Flysurfers still dominate light wind so we see them still but we hardly even see Ozones here anymore (funny because most of us started on Ozones).

The Charger is like any other kite in that you have to learn its traits and adjust your flying accordingly. It has a ton of power, lift and speed but also a ton of De-pow, inherent stability and can handle gusts better than anything out there. There's just a bit of a learning curve I guess.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby herc » December 5th, 2010, 6:30 pm

a thing i noticed the one time i had a chance to fly an ozone frenzy 2010: they have a very small depower range, compared to arcs or modern SLE tube kites ! i dont want to bash ozones, but this is just my observation. i dont know about flysurfers - they claim a 1:9 depower range on their speed3, but i believe that synergy and charger have even more depower. good for safety !

but one thing i would like to see improved on the arcs: the air inlets! flysurfer air valves seem to be much more evolved! using similiar or better air inlets on arcs could improve the launch process ALOT ! less prefilling needed, faster final filling during launch... those two air inlets on the charger might improve internal pressure and keeping the air for a longer time while on ground, but i don't think they help with fill speed.

what i would find interesting also would be:
* an opencell arc (if that is possible at all - but the yagu indicates that it is possible indeed)
* an arc with an flysurfer style optimized valve in each cell !! launching empty, filling itself during rise... no more prefilling - that would be awesome
* overpressure ventiles protecting the kite if smashed to the ground (marc's wish / idea)

YAGU:

http://2e5.com/kite/yagu/sle/

Image
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Kamikuza » December 6th, 2010, 12:20 am

Oooh FS jet flaps on arcs! I'd like to see that done too :D
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby voodoospirit » December 6th, 2010, 9:06 am

depower comes with rigidity of the kite.
open cells kite are not as rigid, they try to make the kites more rigid (mylar on LE, fiber stick, closed cell) so they can increase the depower.
FS kites are well built when u compare to PL kties..more sewing, bomb proof. PL kites finition looks like a 3rd world fabric kites. FS removed their anti-pressure valves on their new kites.

FS kites (speed3 especially) have a impressive depower through the bar, PL kites don t have much through the bar but has one through edging. different type.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby arcsrule » December 6th, 2010, 11:47 am

Hardwater Kiter wrote:I agree, the Charger is just another evolutionary step in Arc design.
It's my understanding that a lot of people that have issues with Chargers share some common traits....

3) They're flying the Charger on their" XYZ "bar. You can't just fly the kite on any bar out there without some serious bar tuning. The Navigator bar is unlike all PL bars to this point and it's driving an Arc that is different than all others. If people insist on riding a different bar they should confirm all dimensions of the Navi bar and tune thier bar accordingly. Not to say there isn't room for change there but you have to have a baseline that works to start with.
I am not sure I agree with or understand this statement. a bar is a bar is a bar...it is a certain length with possibly a hole in the middle for the chicken line and possibly line winders on each end. the bar i'm using now came with my synergy kite. i'm still using those lines with the stock center line adjuster--strap type. the chicken loop is replaced with a 2" stainless ring with emergency release by use of SLINGSHOT SUREFIRE spreader bar or Wichard snap shackel. I use this bar and line set for all my arcs without any adjustment. my adjustments are made on the kite with the use of pigtails. When I first get a new kite, I fly it in really safe and low winds and add the length of pigtails on the back to make it fly like I want. the pigtails on my syn 15 and C12 are appx 8" long for example.

4) They mess with the internal settings before actually trying to fly the kite at the stock settings.

yep, I pull in my shoulders to the max and my center straps half way

The stock settings are where Pepijn designed the Charger to fly.
What are the stock settings? as i have never seen anyone post what a stock setting is (who is Pepjin)

Different kites do different things for different people.

The Charger is like any other kite in that you have to learn its traits and adjust your flying accordingly. It has a ton of power, lift and speed but also a ton of De-pow, inherent stability and can handle gusts better than anything out there. There's just a bit of a learning curve I guess.
agreed!
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 6th, 2010, 5:32 pm

LOL I was a little confused here by a qoute of me that had things that I didn't say. I understand now.

A bar, by itself is indeed a bar. It's the leaders, trims and all the doo hicky's that determine how the bar interacts with a given kite. Something as simple as bar length effects the way the kite flies. If all bars were cross compatible they would all have the same throw, leader line dimensions and trim adjust. Tuning at the kite works in a lot of cases but someimes it's not enough.

Maybe you aren't in tune with the kite to notice much of a difference, this is not meant as a dig believe me. But Just because a kite flies within the parameters of what you personally consider acceptable does not mean that it is flying as it should or is capable of. The most recent example that comes to mind is a guy that I met last year riding a 16m Scorp on a Best bar. The throw on the bar was wrong and it kept him healvily underpowed while I was powered on my 12m Charger with a stock Navi bar. He couldn't understand why the Charger had so much more power and assumed it had to be the kite. He too didn't believe the bar made any difference.

A 16m Scorp should have been pulling him like a freight train that day.

FYI my Navigator bars are not the same as anyone else's. I have them set up specifically to what I want the kite to do, to what I want the bar to do and to suit my needs. Another example of not all bars are the same.

I've also flown Chargers on my '07 bars and even there's a difference in handling. Nope not all bars are the same.

In regard to internal settings the stock setting is full loose. That allows the kite to fly in it's purest designed form without input from any of the add on design features. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with using the adjustments my point is people won't take the time to learn how to fly a kite and learn it's true flight properties before they mess with it. The adjustments can be very useful in certain conditions.

Pepijn Smit is the guy you can thank for bringing Arcs to the next level when he designed and produced the Synergy as well as pushing Arc tech further by designing the Charger. In my book that makes him the ultimate authority on the Charger.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 6th, 2010, 5:40 pm

Oh and Kami, that video is friggen cool.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby arcsrule » December 6th, 2010, 6:14 pm

""Pepijn Smit is the guy you can thank for bringing Arcs to the next level when he designed and produced the Synergy as well as pushing Arc tech further by designing the Charger. In my book that makes him the ultimate authority on the Charger.""

in my book, he picked up where Bod Dawson, Traig Trumbo, Lacklund (lackdude), TINMAN, MEL, loco4viento and many others left off. There were years of trial and error, modifications ect performed by these guys that brought the arc to the point where P.S. did his work. the bridle on the syn and charger is very similar to what we tried back in the day on the s840/1120/1500. The bridle works much better on the Charger than the 1120 :)

As for the bar...from the attachment point of the chicken loop at the harness to the attachment point of the fly lines to the kite is what you are referring to as "the bar". yea, you're right in that 'the bar' complete like that is not interchangeable. But i can take my bar and line set up and fly any kite with it that is a 4 line kite. The length of the bar itself will affect turning. The length of the center depower line or 'chicken line' will affect depower. the length of the lines themselves will affect the turning speed and speed of the kite. The 2 front lines should always be the exact lenth of each other and the back lines should also be the exact lenght--for the kite to fly properly. the front lines can be longer or shorter than the back lines but pigtails of the proper length will be required for the kite to trim properly...as in ANGLE OF ATTACK of the wing.

the ARC kite has come a long way (on the back of many).
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