Charger depower?

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Re: Charger depower?

Postby daves » December 6th, 2010, 7:32 pm

Hey HK,

What size chargers are you riding other than the 12? The charger manual says that the standard settings are half way on the straps and there is no guidance for the knots on the front and rear pigtails. Did you ride your chargers on the stock settings before you determined that the full-loose settings were more acceptable?

D
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 6th, 2010, 8:30 pm

Hey now, don't leave out Chris Brent in that book of yours Arcsrule. =)

Now don't misunderstand me here. Yes, of course Pep picked up the torch where others left off. I'm not disregarding what others had done before him and I'm in no way saying that he is the sole reason for the Arc to be where it is today. Both designs share traits with earlier Arcs but the performance is considerably different from any of the earlier designs. As I said the Syn and Charger are his designs and as such he has substantial knowledge about the ins and outs of both those kites. Stating that as the designer he is the authority on his own designs isn't out of line in my opinion unless there's someone out there with more working knowledge of his design than he has. They're his designs and his opinion on set up should be listened to. That is my point in case I wasn't clear.

Someone asked and I responded. I, in no way trivialized the developement of Arcs to the current state of the art and if you interpret my statement in that way I'm sorry, it was not my intention. Yes, Arc evolution has come a long way on the backs of many and will continue to do so. For instance I don't think Pepijn had what I do on the Syn and Charger in mind when they were in development and that's why I was asked to join the PL team. I willingly accept that I'm the lunatic fringe here and don't completely fit in with the majority of Arc users but I hope in my own expirences on Arcs that I can provide some useful insight and maybe be one of the backs you mention in the future. =) Again I didn't mean an disrespect to any of the earlier contributors to Arc evolution.

Thank you are reinforcing my point that not all bars are going to react with a kite the same way for the very reasons you and I both described. Somehow it was interpreted that my opinion is that you can't fly any 4 line bar on a Charger other than a Navi. That's obviously not the case and you can fly any 4 line bar with any kite that requires a 4 line bar but there will often be a need of adjustment either at the bar or at the kite. My point is that all bars are not the same as someone stated earlier.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 7th, 2010, 1:03 am

hey daves,

I have 10-19m Chargers. Although my 15m is literally the kite I was on for 90% of my riding last winter. I think I've flown the 19,12,10m 4 or 5 times each. That will change a little this season and I'm thinking of picking up an 8 or 6m.

I tend to run with my lines attached to the furthest knot down on the VPC. I run long Navigator bars on all my kites but will run a short bar on the 8 or 6m because they'll be ungodly fast. I run 30m lines sometimes with 5m extensions if flying in tight tree areas to get above the chop.

As stated I run full loose on my internal webbing. That would put the clip midway through the loop as you described. HOWEVER, the have been time where I have had to adjust the back strap to full tight to reduce front end collapse which occurs if I drive the kite too hard directly up wind. I'm told this is not a normal occurrence and in my situation my edge hold on ice allows for this to occur when I get too greedy going up wind. Bear in mind that these settings work for me with my weight (200+) with my personal bar set up and on ice or snow with cold air winds.

Right now the wind is blowing 8 gusting to 18mph. Prime conditions for these kites! Wish I had some ice or snow at least.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby daves » December 7th, 2010, 2:29 am

HK,

Thanks for the info. Good luck on the speed thing this season. Give my regards to Randy when snow hits NE. We were out on our 10's one day in Kinnakeet Oct. Good elevator rides for me on the charger.

D
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 7th, 2010, 2:37 am

HAHAHA! Randy. He finally got back from (I think) 6 weeks down of Hatteras. Always comes back talking about how not that he's riding water it's all he wants to do and couldn't give a damn about riding snow.

But he always changes his tune when get out there. I've never seen him ride water but he rides ice with a tenacity I've never seen in a kiter. There a ton of power in that 110 pound rider! Hope to see him soon and I'll say "hi".

Thanks for the well wishes and I hope you have a great winter.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby daves » December 7th, 2010, 2:54 am

Ha ha, yeah, I pulled into the campground for a couple day visit and he was settled in at the best site. 23 days! That's tenacious when you consider it was a BAD BAD BAD mosquito year. I did a couple downwinders with some PacNW friends, but did not have a chance to take Randy on one. Next year. You too?

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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Albatross Mark » December 7th, 2010, 7:16 am

I side with Arcsrules comments on bars and lines tho Hardwater has some good points. Line lengths seem Dead SERIOUS with my Charger 19m.I Had 29 m lines on it and no Y just V. She clammed .25m with Y still unpredictable, Worked good before with 22m V so figured i didnt like Y and figured 22m was good then go 19m long V Will be better. Its a big kite and feels good closer and crank turns faster which is really most important when wind backs off. Find out soon when wind comes up.She better work good or i will have to get PL to take it back and give me a Synergy19m.....The 15m Synergy flies fine......A Mark
Albatross is a huge seabird that soars the waves and winds of the high seas mostly in the roarimg 40's. Albatross Mark tries to mimmic this bird using the following kites: 8m Vortex,10m Venom,8m P3 FS,10m North Rebel ,10,12,15, 19m Psycho 4 FlySurfer
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Kamikuza » December 7th, 2010, 11:39 am

Bollocks. If it's clamming, something else is going on. Unless you've totally borked the Y line ... I'm amazed at how close to the kite it is on the Nav bar.
IMO the Synergy is very sensitive to bar and trim at launch, until or unless it's FULLY inflated. I'd compare it to a half-full Scorpion ...

FYI someone on foilzone.com mentioned that FS used to have a Y line but went back to V for the faster turning ... apparently.

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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 7th, 2010, 12:58 pm

Yes, Bollocks. (Now that's an expression that really needs to get worked into my vocabulary) I agree with there is probably something else going on.

And both the Syn and Charger are more tempermental at launch like the Scorp. But at least the Syn and Charger are low enough AR that (wIth practice) they can be launched at about 1/3 full. But it's a hell of a balancing act and clamshelling and bowties are definately a common result with low internal pressure. I've seen a lot of expirienced V2 riders have trouble just getting the Charger off the ground. It's a totally different kite and there is definately a learning curve.

Mark, my expirience has been that the kites I've owned have a "sweet spot" in regards to bar set up and it's affect on depow and AoA and that sweet spot is relative to what you want your kite to do and I'm still blown away by how just a few mm of length can affect the character of a kite. I never said that you can't use XYZ off the shelf bars and fly an Arc with it. I did say that if you do you likely have to make changes to the bar set up as it in probably not tuned to fly on an Arc. I don't think Arcsrule was entirely in dissagreement with me in his post in fact he restated some points that I was trying to make. Anyway, on a different subject, shorter lines generate less power on the 19m. You may be able to offset the short line length with the turn rate on the Charger but there's more power in longer lines especially in light winds.

daves, hopefully next summer I'll manage to stay off the injured list and have time to wet water. It would be nice to really be able to try jumping without worrying about wrecking myself on a hard landing. I'll probably end up spouting off like Randy and denounce snowkiting as a stupid thing to do. Until I'm forced to do it again. hehehe

Kami, the vid you posted in this thread. The open cell Arc like single skin thing. Amazing.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby arcsrule » December 7th, 2010, 6:31 pm

i don't understand launching an under inflated kite. I always lay out my kite, sand the tip, unzip and walk away. i then lay out my lines and attach. if in that small amount of time my kite is not full, then there is not enough wind tto go up wind anyway..so why bother... 99% of the time, i launch with the kite dead down wind. I always slide a few feet as the kite flys up on a diagonal. i never have an issue like that. i imagine that if i were 10-15 degrees off of downwind, the kite could drift back, something i would not want..so i just slide :)

as for the tips 'clapping' i had a long bar and 150' lines on my S15 and i could go really low , like 10mph. but then when i got my gorilla and used those long lines, the kite would fly maybe half way through the power zone with really good pull and then just clam shut. it flew fine with my normal lines of 25-27 meters.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Ced » December 7th, 2010, 8:58 pm

my experience with launching chargers doesn't agree with some of the statements made here... Synergy too. I find both those kites easy to launch as long as they are properly inflated. When launching new kites one should check that the material of the vents is not sticking together due to static.

just had 35 to 40 knots gusty gnarly on the Charger 8 and it handled beautifully...

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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 7th, 2010, 9:17 pm

LOL Arcsrule, have you checked your location lately? YOU'RE IN JACKSONVILLE FLORIDAAAA! You have some of the nicest smoothest winds to ride in. 99% of the time we have to have mechanical assist to inflate here. Even with the wind blowing well enough to inflate via normal inflation procedure our winds are shift direction so often the kite never gets to fill. Not everyone has good winds. Then when there's light wind it's too light at ground level to inflate properly. Some people say that if it's too light to inflate a Peter Lynn then it's too light to be worth riding. Those people clearly aren't snowkiters. I'm not bashing you here Arcsrule I'm jealous of the winds you get down there. I'd kill everyone in this room to have the wind you guys get. But I wouldn't give up the expirience that we get flying in the dirty stuff we get here.

Ced's right. If the kite is properly inflated it launches beautifully. But I still think that Venom 1's and 2's were more willing to launch. Don't take this as " I think the Charger is difficult to launch." I like the way the Charger launches just fine but I've seen people who are capable fliers of older PLs have more trouble launching the Charger.

Must have been rockin' on the 8m. Looking forward to grabbing one.
Last edited by Hardwater Kiter on December 8th, 2010, 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby tungsten » December 7th, 2010, 11:46 pm

Hi HK, tinkering, I came across this type of collapse... more effective than a full tight back strap is shortening the middle strap in the middle cell by 3cm (CH12); also does not take away power, like adding reflex with the back strap does.

cheers, tungsten

Hardwater Kiter wrote:... HOWEVER, the have been time where I have had to adjust the back strap to full tight to reduce front end collapse which occurs if I drive the kite too hard directly up wind. I'm told this is not a normal occurrence and in my situation my edge hold on ice allows for this to occur when I get too greedy going up wind. ....
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Kamikuza » December 8th, 2010, 12:16 am

That was Herc not me, HWK :)

I find that even if the kite is "fully" inflated, by the time I've zipped it and walked back to the bar it's not as firm as it was. Although I noticed in the new PL setup vids on YouTube that they're opening the downwind tip too ...
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » December 8th, 2010, 3:24 am

Thanks for the tip Tungsten. Next time I run into the problem I'll give it a shot and see how it feels. It's usually in high winds so the lessened power isn't very noticeable but maybe it will give me a little more juice that I've been missing out on. I wish I could try it right now. All this wind and lack of snow is killing me but it looks like we're good to go up north so tomorrow hopefully! But yeah, I'll give it a try.

Kami, what's herc doing using ur acct?

Sorry it's not as firm as it was.

Bollocks! (how's that eh?)
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Kamikuza » December 8th, 2010, 5:57 am



You mean this one, no?
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby tungsten » December 8th, 2010, 8:35 am

The yagu is a funny project for sure! Not exactly designed for performance I take, it's got to have the L/D of a fridge, but it flies wonderfully and looks good in the air.

The Charger on the other hand is a wonderful project, designed for performance, and looks even better in the air (especially from below, when you're under it and you know it's yours). And, on top, you can still tinker with it because it's an ARC! Wonderful kite.

I ran into the LE collapse when I worked on adding camber by shortening the TE. Gotta find the sweet spot. At the best setting (most grunt and best turning), the AoA would become too negative for the profile to produce lift when I flew the kite hard into the wind, depowered. LE folds in for a moment taking all the power with it before the kite recovers. Not good. 2nd braid works a treat, 3-4cm did the job for me.

Have a couple bridle options and some good SLARC stuff up the sleeve as well :twisted: My Christmas present 8-)
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby Ismo » December 8th, 2010, 4:39 pm

arcsrule wrote:i don't understand launching an under inflated kite. I always lay out my kite, sand the tip, unzip and walk away. i then lay out my lines and attach. if in that small amount of time my kite is not full, then there is not enough wind tto go up wind anyway..so why bother...

I'd like to have beach where to launch, but in summer I have a field behind trees where I fill the kite. then I walk 10m wide and 30m long path to "beach", but my beach is just 5m wide launchpad and water is 1.8m deep after that launchpad.

In winter it's common situation that in surface is absolutely no wind, or 1-2m/s, but in 5m high is 4m/s and it's plenty in winter.

If I want inflate my ARCs fully, I need this http://petrolleafblowers.net/ :D
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby daves » December 8th, 2010, 5:49 pm

Yes! The over pressure kite. One more name left off the list is Pete Jr. Nice to see he's still involved with kites. I remember hearing that he was kiting the San Fran area frequently when the syn was in development.

http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/newslet ... Nl_10.html
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Re: Charger depower?

Postby daves » December 8th, 2010, 6:05 pm

I wonder a if double sock would increase the pressure in the kites? Oil evaporator pumps use multiple sequential "vents" to create extremely high vacuum. The sequential socks might allow small volume increments to build higher pressures after the initial inflation.

Also, maybe socks on the inflate vents could help maintain pre-inflation pressure? Would be easy enough to try, but my machine is buried in the storage unit.
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