New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Kitesurfing/Kiteboarding on Liquid H2O

New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 17th, 2011, 5:06 pm

So autumn is coming our way, gusty, dirty winds... as I am going strapless only for a while now, I want my CH to be as tame a wave kite as my beloved modded SYNs are: super stable, utmost control, but still fast through the window, turning on a dime, and reactive with almost no back line pressure.

Ah yeah, did I mention it, no pulley no rings. As you see, it's as simple as it can get: loops an all ends, larks headed together. KISS design.

Well here it is:

1. The hand clap mod (see other post), plus
2. A new bridle (actually it's the old bridle I made for the SYN, with the new measurements for the CH :D

Tested on CH12 and CH15. Rocks. The CH10 measurements are calculated to scale.

As always, any old question, fire away. Enjoy the ride.

cheers, tungsten
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CH10_bridle.jpg
CH10_bridle.jpg (90.73 KiB) Viewed 9989 times
CH12_bridle.jpg
CH12_bridle.jpg (90.31 KiB) Viewed 9989 times
CH15_bridle.jpg
CH15_bridle.jpg (90.71 KiB) Viewed 9989 times
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby steuu » November 18th, 2011, 8:37 am

What can I say... I like KISS design, I like the no pulley idea....

I'll test for sure this bridle next spring...

Just 2 questions:
-What do you think you lose with this bridle?? turning speed? depower at the bar?
-With this bridle I can use the default charger lines without any other pigtails or line compensations??

I'm REALLY curious to try this!!!
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 18th, 2011, 9:36 am

Hi steuu, first off, I'm flying this bridle on my SYNs since 2008. 500 Sessions down in all kinds of conditions. And it makes the CH shine even more than the SYN. All this power, all of a sudden with full control :twisted:

What would you lose... remember it's horses for courses. For my liking (strapless surfboards and finless skims, in gusty choppy stuff at times), the kite sometimes used to be unpredictably explosive on the original bridle, and to a lesser extent on the first mod with a singe sliding ring. Now it's still explosive, but only if you give the respective bar input. Turning speed and depower is untouched.

I did actually use some parts of original bridles, but I don't remember which kite they were from. I've got lots of stuff lying around in a big box, and a 150m spool of dyneema bridle line, so yeah... get yourself some appropriate dyneema (at the online marine store for 1,50 Euro the meter), tie a couple of figure 8 knots, and you're done. Or splice the loops, which is what I do.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby Hardwater Kiter » November 18th, 2011, 11:26 am

Hey T, How do you determine component lengths for these bridals? Like the initial dimensions for a given size then the rate of scale (up or down) for other sizes?
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 18th, 2011, 12:20 pm

HK, that is right. In steps:

BUILD:
-start with the A and B line. they measure roughly half a spar length.
-attach A and B line to kite, put the D pig tail on.
-tie the stopper knots in the C line and attach C line to the TE of the kite.
-measure C line to the stopper knot on B line, where it is supposed to be attached.
-put on your rear pigtail
-done.

TEST:
When the bridle is put together, hold the spar and pull on the front pigtail as if the kite was flying. A, B and C are now under tension, no slack in the C line. If you have slack in the C line, it is too long, add knots to the C line in order to shorten it.

IN FLIGHT:
When you look up to your kite in zenith, with slack rears, the front line pigtails are slightly (2-3cm) pulled rearward. Just a bit. If it's too much, then your C line is too short. Take out a stopper knot on each side to make it longer (one knot equals roughly 1,5cm, depending on bridle material)

SCALE:
In order to calculate figures for other sizes, spar length is the factor. Fine tuning as above. Pigtails D and E might be slightly different, according to your bar setup, but you will find that out :mrgreen:

calc. CH19:
A-83cm
B-83cm
C-126
D-8cm
E-25cm
S1-35cm

calc. CH8:
A-56cm
B-56cm
C-85cm
D-8cm
E-25cm
S1-24cm
Last edited by tungsten on November 18th, 2011, 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby arcspearo » November 18th, 2011, 12:43 pm

WHHHOOOOO HOOOO!!!
Clap mod AND new bridal.... I'm so glad I kept my Chargers!
Thanks Mr. Tugsten!!!! You rock!
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby Hardwater Kiter » November 18th, 2011, 1:20 pm

Awesome, I've always wondered. Clears up some mystery for me. I gotta figur out how to adapt this to my F-Arcs.

Thanks T, as usual you rock.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 18th, 2011, 2:07 pm

OT: OK lets nerd a bit here. This bridle stuff is not rocket science 8-)

Bridle geometry is determined by spar length and angle of spar when flying off the front lines, and the amount of tow point shifting that is required. Bigger kites want relatively more tow point shifting than smaller kites of the same making. Wind speed is the reason why (the force generated by the wing profile is usable force for steering, which is proportional to the SQUARE of wind speed)

When I make a bridle for a new kite, I start to google for a picture which shows the kite in flight, from the side. This gives me a good idea of the angles involved (spar vs. front line). I then choose the front leg (A line) so that it is a bit lower than the TE attachment point. How much lower determines the lever arms of your bridle. There is an optimum point between leverage, bar force and shifting effect. Just make the right assumptions for your force vectors, or simply try it, which is usually faster :lol:

For kites with 2 attachment points (like Venom...) you only have A line and C line, the rest is the same. Works a treat for Venom and Venom II. Never tried on hi AR kites because I dont have any, but you will find out. I guess it should work, as it's being done on the Scorpion.

A and B line being of equal length is pure coincidence in this case. They are not equal on my SYN bridle, i.e. In the CH case, spar length and position make for equal A and B. Go figure.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 18th, 2011, 2:48 pm

OT: Something like this:
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 18th, 2011, 3:07 pm

Hey Mr. arcspearo, you seem to be into wave kiting. Then this is definitely for you!
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby arcuser » November 18th, 2011, 3:11 pm

this bridle will work correctly without the hand clap mod ?
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 18th, 2011, 3:32 pm

The bridle works on all kites I have tried it so far, V, VII, SYN, CH. Only my CH had this inherent instability in the wing tips which I took care of with the hand clap mod.

A we learned, some CH clap, and some don't. Now if you have a CH which does not clap, I assume it won't clap with the new bridle either. But if it does, you know what you have to do.

In any case, the hand clap mod adds lots of stability and smoothness. That's why I mentioned it in the first place in this post. Recommended. Do it quick and dirty, fold over and sew down.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby Albatross Mark » November 18th, 2011, 11:27 pm

I wanna get a Charger 19 and Tungstenize it!! We need more input like his,Chargers have some great qualities but arent perfect.We need PL team members to improove them.Thanks Tungsten
Albatross is a huge seabird that soars the waves and winds of the high seas mostly in the roarimg 40's. Albatross Mark tries to mimmic this bird using the following kites: 8m Vortex,10m Venom,8m P3 FS,10m North Rebel ,10,12,15, 19m Psycho 4 FlySurfer
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby markite » November 19th, 2011, 3:18 am

Tungsten
thanks for the info on the new bridle. I still have the info you had from an earlier bridle which was similar to this one with some differences. In the earlier bridle you had the current B + C lines as one continuous line running through a ring attached on the A line - and then a bungee line added. Did you find that the other adjustments are not necessary? This is a lot cleaner to set up, looks good.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 19th, 2011, 6:52 am

Hi markite, I've been flying the bridle you mention this summer, which was OK in our steady summer winds. This bridle, the one with the ring, resolved the pulley problem (where I kite, they get stuck in a blink), but kept the overall properties of the original bridle. It mimicks the original bridle with its moving part, so the kite is as explosive as usual, but without the wobble.
In real gusty stuff I usually changed to my modded SYN12, which is super super stable and has accurate steering. Remember, I'm going strapless and finless in choppy wind blown waves. Add gusts with an unstable kite and it's getting too much.

Now for winter conditions, I wanted to bring the CH12 to the level of the SYN12. Thermic winds are over, now it's frontal winds, which are turbulent and gusty. This requires a tame and stable kite for skimming, otherwise you go over the edge too often. So I tried the SYN bridle setup on the CH, and boy, is that sweet.

But as I said, the beauty is that the CH opens so many possibilities. Different bridle makes a different kite, with all that speed and power the CH has. I've been saying this for years now, there's so much unleashed potential in the modern ARCs. Play with it.
Last edited by tungsten on November 19th, 2011, 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby markite » November 19th, 2011, 7:14 am

It's not that often that we get clean winds around the great lakes and inland any time of the year - especially in the winter, so it'll be fun to try out to see the difference on the Chargers. I hadn't had any tip clap issues but have friends that do and the tip adjuster mod you worked up is a great easy solution.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 19th, 2011, 7:15 am

Mark, yeah I hear you, if web logic would apply (many people working on an issue), we would have that stuff sorted in a blink. Unfortunately it's very few people modding these days, so the process is sloooooow. I don't know how the PL team works and what's their purpose, so can't comment. Like the other PL guy when we discussed the hand clap issue, offered help and his contacts to the designer, but never came back.

Good to hear the hand clap mod works for others, it certainly does for me. But I only cover a certain part of the possible use and conditions. No idea how a light guy on a TT does - I'm a lard ass on surfboards, which you can't compare.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby Hardwater Kiter » November 19th, 2011, 12:01 pm

Also in response to A.Mark, for my part it's hard to make an effort to mod or improve a wing if you don't have a problem with it. I'm not saying that as PL team rider in PL's pocket. I'm saying it as a rider who doesn't have any problems (apart from the retarded fast lift) with his Chargers or the way they handle. And it's always a delicate thing to voice an opinion about the product you're supposed to represent that isn't in line with the sponsor's opinion. Also, not all team riders are that proactive about thier equipment. Like people with cars, some are happy to live with a car the way it is, even it's shortcommings, and others mod the hell out of them to get it to do what they want.

I didn't like the Navigator bar. In my enviroment the split line is a problem so I immediately modded the bar. I think the Navi bar, even bone stock, is better than the earlier bars but I adapted it to suit my needs. I just made a demo vid yesterday to clarify some stuff.... (http://youtu.be/cCCzIJ3iKGg)

Speaking of bars, I think the bars are a highly overlooked componenent in Arc set up. I hear so many people complain about the perfomance of thier Arcs and when I see the bar set ups some people are running I'm amazed they can fly the kite at all. So many are set either to near stall or a constant state of power up.

But I'm getting off topic. Anyway again, awesome work Tungsten.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby tungsten » November 19th, 2011, 2:23 pm

Well said HK, key line is "if I don't have a problem, why would I mod." That's why I want to encourage peeps (those with a bit of experience) to try stuff if they think something could be done better, and throw in what they have. The designer can only do so much, impossible to cover all the scenarios. But we are many, we can make stuff better.

Cool bar mod HK, simple and effective. I'll steal that one 8-) Just coming back from a nice long session on the CH12, ugly winds, short lines (18m), and loads of fun. That kite now behaves better than Paris Hilton's Chiahuahua.
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Re: New CH bridle: max. control for gusty winter winds

Postby Albatross Mark » November 19th, 2011, 5:04 pm

Wish there was a guy like Tungsten runin a shop in America.Selling FS and PL's new and used and do the mods and tune the kites for people.Seems these Chargers can be perfect or whacky fresh out of the bag.I would rather buy a used one that has been moded by a master and tested in different conditions than gamble on buying a new one.
Albatross is a huge seabird that soars the waves and winds of the high seas mostly in the roarimg 40's. Albatross Mark tries to mimmic this bird using the following kites: 8m Vortex,10m Venom,8m P3 FS,10m North Rebel ,10,12,15, 19m Psycho 4 FlySurfer
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