Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Kitesurfing/Kiteboarding on Liquid H2O

Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Hardwater Kiter » March 22nd, 2012, 12:02 am

BuwahahahahahA! That's awesome. The "veering" as you describe Mark is exactly the trait that I like about the Charger. True, you have to countersteer the Charger to maintain control, true it's more work than the earlier Arcs but man it makes for a fast snappy wing. Especially in the smaller 8 & 10m sizes.

This isn't the case with the Phantom 2. Although you can make it snap a turn like a Charger and countersteer it doesn't "veer" as you described.

And I agree, the P4 does a lot of things but "veering" isn't one of them. They turn like a hot air ballon.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Kamikuza » March 22nd, 2012, 12:11 am

The bridle supports the wing - easy launch is a by-product. Complex bridle with complex issues is also a by-product...
That you don't like how the kite works doesn't make it poorly designed.

Holes in logic... I hates them.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Flyboy » March 22nd, 2012, 3:10 am

I have been practicing my "Albatross" vocabulary and thought I'd post what I think Mark means by "veering". Mind you... I have never flown a Charger and have no idea how they fly .
That said, Mark and I had a phone conversation a day or so ago, and he was describing HIS charger's flight characteristics. During this conversation, It sounded as though he was describing a situation that pilot's term "Neutral Stability". This is where an imput in the controls result in the known response. But when the control imput is terminated, the response continues. And thus a reverse imput must then be applied to stop the initial response. As imagined, this begins an "occilation". In regards to an airplane, this neutral stability can be very subtle but nonetheless very annoying.
I think this is was what Mark is refering to when he says his Charger is a monster that has a mind of it's own.
I thought I'd post this only to say that I don't think that he is talking about slowing the kite's turning speed, but removing this charactaristic.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Albatross Mark » March 22nd, 2012, 7:45 am

Yeah Flyboy i believe thats more or less it. Kamakusa you have a 15 and 19 Chargenr and thiey came out of the box and launched and flew perfect with low bar pressure?And lotsa flight hours with no boo boos? and you ride in surf where you must watch waves and not the kite ?HK .when you wanna turn a P 4 precisely and quickly just reach over the bar and yank a steering line,thats a favorite way to make a turn on a swell and drop in.
Albatross is a huge seabird that soars the waves and winds of the high seas mostly in the roarimg 40's. Albatross Mark tries to mimmic this bird using the following kites: 8m Vortex,10m Venom,8m P3 FS,10m North Rebel ,10,12,15, 19m Psycho 4 FlySurfer
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby tungsten » March 22nd, 2012, 9:10 am

Tssssss.... you're calling a Ferrari a badly designed truck, Mark. :roll:

Just take any of your other kites (you own a SYN15 and a CH15 and a P4 15 as well) and have a nice session. A race horse is not as handsome as a mule.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Timothy Grossnickle » March 22nd, 2012, 10:45 am

Mark and Tungsten,

Found your comments of much interest on Ch design. VO, a smaller kite company, cannot make kites for every need. They are designing for the mass market and not the smaller niche markets which include surf kites. In this regard the older more stable designs like V's and Syns suited both. With Charger they built the faster more sensitive kite that suited the mass market, but not suited to big wave riding where you need to park the kite and ride the wave with one hand on the bar. In this situation if the kite keeps moving or veering, you either end up dumping the kite or having the wave eat the rider. As Tungsten pointed out this doesn't make the Ch a bad kite. It highlights that Pepin didn't design the Charger as a wave riding kite.

As for the P2 from afar it appears to me as if VO situated in Northern Europe is seeing the rapid growth of course racing on the water with kites and designed the P2 to fill this need. The fact that the P2 also fits the needs of buggiers and snow kiters also makes the higher aspect P2 the logical design direction for Pepjin and VO.

Having said all the above, if VO is monitoring this forum, I think it would make sense for them to add a set of fixed bridles with the new Charger package as well as making VCP bridles available as an after market option for Chargers....

Regards,
Tim
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby tungsten » March 22nd, 2012, 11:12 am

Tim, I'd like to say that the CH are excellent wave kites, where fast turning is required. Not on the original bridle, I agree, and with the little tweak I suggested, but that's all it takes. I'm going strapless surf boards almost all of the time, so I am using the CH for exactly that.

Now it is true that CH require kite flying skill. Don't want to step on anyone's toes, but it is a good idea to hone your skills with some fast twitchy bitchy trainer kite for the proper use of CH. It's not for beginners. You have to fly it all the time, without having to think too much.

When you're on a wave, going down the line, just stall it, and it hangs there quietly, low over the water, waiting for your input. In stall and riding against the kite, you can turn it on a plate (pivot-turn) and decide very quickly which way to go. Crucial things on a wave.

I'm talking about regular CH here. If you bought a lemon with distorted braids, it's sure frustrating.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Hardwater Kiter » March 22nd, 2012, 11:36 am

I'm curious what line lengths and bar widths everyone is riding. I like Flyboy's translation of Mark's term for "Veering". I think it describes the action perfectly.

I know that I can grab the balls above the float ( wait, what?) on the P4 to increase turn rate but I'd rather not. I just want to snap a turn without the extra effort. Another reason I fly the Arcs. And if I'm really greedy I can float steer the Charger or Ph2 and downloop it within the space of a wingspan. The only kites I've seen do that are LEIs so I'm pretty psyched on that.

It would be handy if Vlop would make an off the shelf VPC option available. But the question I would ask is how many riders would use it to justify the added expense? We have 5 people locally (myself included) that ride Chargers and like the stock VPC. Maybe the compromise would be to add a section to the PL site and the kite manual supplied with the wing that would have details as to how to mod the VPC?

On a different note, they mention on the Phantom2 part of the site that the VPC can be removed from the Ph2. I'm going to pull the VPC of of one of my 12m Ph2's and do a side by side comparison with the other 12m Ph2 and see what it's like.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby tungsten » March 22nd, 2012, 12:28 pm

WIth only marginal effort and minimal cost everybody can make their own bridles, the plans have been posted. If you had to buy it off a manufacturer, you would look at what? 75$ or something, per kite? Buy the dyneema on the web for 1,00$ per meter, tie a couple knots, and you're done. Or ask a buddy who is familiar with ropes to do it, pay him a couple beers and that's that. Splicing, knots, all that is on youtube and you can figure it out in 5 minutes. Probably faster than writing up a complaint on a forum :D
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Timothy Grossnickle » March 22nd, 2012, 2:50 pm

Tungsten,

Appreciate your comments on the utility of Charger as a surf kite. However, as you mention in your last post, the pulley bridle system on stock Chargers need modification to a fixed system before it becomes a useful wave riding kite. For most of us who wish we had waves to ride like you and Mark, the pulley system on larger Chargers provide an ideal solution to all around riding.

As regards a fixed bridle on Chargers, have looked back to try to find your specs. Could you re-post your details on fixed bridles or give me some clues on how to find your post in the archives.

Thanks in advance for your help...

Regards,
Tim
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby zerogee » March 22nd, 2012, 3:09 pm

"SYNERGY... the interaction of two or more forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects."
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Hardwater Kiter » March 22nd, 2012, 6:14 pm

I ran a 16" pigtail (arbitrary)on the back and the front of the VPC on well, the
front with 2" pigtails (just so I could have a knot). All internals
were set at loose. 16" is what my gut told me.

The wind was 5-15mph and variable about 220 degrees so it was not an
easy condition to test in but still a good one. I was static flying
BTW.

I can say that the lack of VPC makes the kite rock steady on edge.
Almost F-Arc like even in the dirty winds. Very nice.

Turn rate was still very good. I was actually suprised how good and
the bar pressure was not much more if at all higher than at the VPCs
highest setting.

Power seemed a lot higher. Or at least immediate. I would need to
get her out on the ice to know for sure. Back lines looked good and
plenty slack enough that I don't think they were too tight. I think I
have the pigtails pretty close to where I would like them. Hopefully
I'll get her out on the ice tomorrow (if we have any left, it's near
90f right now) and I'll be able to know for sure if she has more
power.

Depower seemed MAYBE slightly less. Steering slowed a lot more in the
non-vpc Ph2 than the vpc equiped one. Still tolerable and faster than
say a Venom 2

Relaunch was about the same.

My opinion at this point is that removing the VPC turns her into
nearly a completely different wing. Not better, not less good, but
definately different. I liked it very much. Like a Venom 2 on steroids almost. It had a very similar feel to earlier Arcs IMO.

I hope to ride it tomorrow. Winds are going to be in the 20's so it
will be a good day to test it out.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby tungsten » March 22nd, 2012, 6:24 pm

Tim, my bad, I'm so used to mod my stuff straight away that I sometimes forget how they work out of the box. You're right, people buying a kite have to deal with what they find in the box. VPC3 in big waves... would scare me :?
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Albatross Mark » March 24th, 2012, 6:00 pm

TUNGSTEN,i did the 5cm pinch on middle strap. Put inlet vent between two existing and three inches lower( works good!) But i took the bridal completely off and just used pigtails like older models. DOES YOUR bridal mod reduce bar pressure? .AND would going 8 cm or more on middle strap help with "veering"? QUITE a few kites do the "veering" but the bar pressure is so low that a light flick commands her.Even the 2012 North Rebel that flies so wonderful wants to crash while i am getting on leash and board.(spoiled by autozenith of Arcs) i pull down the bar stopper and it kinda autozeniths with some rear line pressure on both sides.
Albatross is a huge seabird that soars the waves and winds of the high seas mostly in the roarimg 40's. Albatross Mark tries to mimmic this bird using the following kites: 8m Vortex,10m Venom,8m P3 FS,10m North Rebel ,10,12,15, 19m Psycho 4 FlySurfer
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby tungsten » March 24th, 2012, 11:50 pm

Mark, if you have a problem with a CH15, I would suggest this:
1. check braid measurements according to posted specs
2. fly the kite with all adjusters loose
3. add braid mod according to specs (you've done this already)
4. add fixed bridle according to posted specs, or fly off the LE and TE attachment points with pigtails (I prefer the fixed bridle)
5. If you still feel the kite is too twitchy, get yourself a twitchy bitchy 2m-ish trainer kite and practise
6. If all of that does not resolve your issue, use another kite. If you're looking for park'n ride, CH is not your best choice. It's pointless to kick a Porsche Turbo for being a lousy beginner's vehicle.

I can only provide this general To Do list, because I don't know your particular kite. Haven't seen you flying it.

The fixed bridal does not reduce bar pressure. it has actually got a wee bit more bar pressure than the VPC3, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know what happens if you shorten the braid on your kite by 8cm per side. Why don't you try and tell us what happens?
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Flyboy » March 28th, 2012, 1:40 am

Tim,
I wanted to get back to you about sealing up the velcros. I just had a chance to ride my 10 meter venom yesterday, It was super windy so I'm not too sure about the results. But I think that it made a positive change in the kite. It seemed just a bit more powerful than when I flew it in Mexico. I really want to try my 15 syn still but it was way too windy. I'll let you know once that happens though.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Kamikuza » March 30th, 2012, 7:22 am

I don't think you're going to get a reduction in bar pressure with these kites without some clever pulley system that'd be overly complex and a waste of time... harden up :D work with the kite, don't force it around.

My 15 was used and apart from clapping on launch (lazy me) occasionally it flies like a champ. The 19 was brand new, had no issues on launch - but I've only used it once on the water.
These are NOT park'n'ride kites unless it's Stupid wind. Especially for my heavy rear-end...

Why do I say that? Cos where we are, we get mad waves and chop when the wind is blowing - it's start'n'stop riding as you bounce over waves, sink and start again on a TT - and you need a parachute in the sky, not a clever wing.
Now, if it was the Estuary in Christchurch, it might be a different story... mmm, flat-water...

Chargers are much more aggressive than the Synergy's, especially in their turn speed and how much power they make when you whip them around - truly impressive! But they are so not tractors...
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby elnica » April 1st, 2012, 10:42 pm

I was having trouble with the internal pressure as well so I taped up the velcros on the Syns yesterday. Hopefully that helps avoid water getting into the kite too. Was a little worried about making the kite more prone to bursting but we'll see. What I noticed during the pressure test is that no air was escaping from the vents but a lot of air escapes through the inflation zippers (and even more from the velcros). The flap on the zippers is on the outside helping prevent water from coming in, but if there was a similar one also on the inside it would help keep the kite from loosing pressure. I might try adding a flap after water testing the kites in a few weeks. Maybe the velcros were the main source of water intake when the kite is down. Either way taping the velcros will increase internal pressure thus helping keep water out no matter where it's coming in through.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby tungsten » April 2nd, 2012, 6:37 am

IMHO there's no correlation between internal pressure and water getting into the kite. Density of water and of air are too far apart.
I see the advantage in that a fully inflated kite keeps the shape for optimal aerodynamic profile, especially where it's most important, at the front part of the profile.
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Re: Internal Pressure Test on Chargers...

Postby Timothy Grossnickle » April 4th, 2012, 7:20 pm

Fly,

Glad you tried taping the velcro on Venoms. I taped mine too. However, it worth noting that the velcro tabs on Venoms much smaller than on Syns or Chargers.

Elnica,

When we did our pressure test we noticed the same thing as you about air escaping through the zips and perhaps more than through the velcro tabs. However, when we taped over the velcro tabs the kite arched up into flying shape. Before the taping it lay flat, but inflated as on the beach. Thought about taping over the deflation zip and one inflation zip, but decided against this. For now the velcro taping seems to make enough difference to keep Ch 15 from tacoing. None the less, I think its interesting that the older Gorilla arcs had only one zip in the middle for inflation and deflation which worked fine for me....

Agree with Tungsten on the pressure keeping the water out of kites. From what I can tell water leaks in mainly through the air intake vents. Fewer vents on the newer PLK kites help this. Something I discovered when teaching a newbie to kite on an older Gorilla Arc. Had taped the velcro tabs shut on this kite too. Because the G was taking in so much water with frequent crashes I had to take the tape off to let the water leak out.

Regards,
Tim
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