How to launch on slippery ice?

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How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Andreas » February 1st, 2011, 1:52 pm

Hello!

I was going to ski kite on ice with my Syn15 this weekend. The problem was the launch. Wind was 12 to 20 knots and the wet ice was very slippery. I couldn't do my normal launch with the kite flat and a wieght on the tip nearest me, because the kite pulled away with the weight before I could sort out the lines and bar.

So I tried a taco launch with the bar attached to a pole, when I was filling the Syn15 with air. Now it couldn't drift away and I had the weight on the bottom tip aswell. But when I was going from the kite to the bar, the upper tip catched the wind before I could reach the bar and the kite got into a bowtie I couldn't sort out and I have to pull the release when it was still possible. Then I got a big wet mess of kite and lines and had to give up.

I thought of not having any wieght on the lower tip at the taco launch but then the kite could fly up by itself, fly away braking things.

Even if a havier weight should have hold the kite from drifting, I had as much wieght I practically could carry with me and also be able to roll of the kite at launching.

I can think of two possible solutions for this kind of conditions. Both are flat starts, not taco position:

1. Arrange a smoth short pole that I lay the kites up wind tip bridle around, the top of the pole shall point about a 45 deg angle towards the wind / L.E. so it could glide of when I pull the kite against the wind.

2. Let the lines at the tip nearest me go through a quick realese hook attached in the ice. The q.r. realese line shall be as long as the kite span so I can realese the q.r. without putting any tension on the far away tip.

Maybe there are some better ways to start on slippery ice in stronger winds?

BR

(shall we post kiting on ice in the water section or land section of this forum?) Ice isn't exactly land but frozen water :?
Last edited by Andreas on February 2nd, 2011, 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C-QUAD 3.2, C-QUAD 4.2, ARC 1120, ARC 460, Waterfoil 3.6 (Now rep :-) ), Flysurfer MastAir 16, Vade Retro Satana 7 m2 (under rep), VenomII 16 (waiting for rep), Synergy 15.

Top speed on skies: 71,0 km/h or 44.1 mph (feb 24 -2011, Syn 15)
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Bladerunner » February 2nd, 2011, 1:02 am

Have you got an ice screw ? 2 is better!

Hook your CL to a big carabiner on some waist high rope ( for easy CL transfer ) to the 1st screw. A line from safety to a second screw would be good. Fill the kite well and launch it from the edge. If all goes well it will drift to zenith. It has gone wrong for me and pulled the ice screw out so the second ice screw ( that you should take along with you ) to the safety is a good idea.

Having a partner would be advised on that stuff in that wind. You can side launch each other + call medics!
Arcs In my bag : Synergy - 15m, 10m , Phantom - 18m, F-arc 1200 , S-arc 460, T-arc 1.3

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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Andreas » February 2nd, 2011, 12:29 pm

Thanks, that sounds like a good way, one attachement for the C.L. and one for the leash. Must be tested, only for ARCs ;). I couldn't do it that particular day thou because the pole I attached the C.L. to didn't have a stop so it could have glide of it. I have to check for ice screws now.
C-QUAD 3.2, C-QUAD 4.2, ARC 1120, ARC 460, Waterfoil 3.6 (Now rep :-) ), Flysurfer MastAir 16, Vade Retro Satana 7 m2 (under rep), VenomII 16 (waiting for rep), Synergy 15.

Top speed on skies: 71,0 km/h or 44.1 mph (feb 24 -2011, Syn 15)
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » February 2nd, 2011, 4:55 pm

Make sure you're not launching like that in twitchy winds.

I like to secure my bar or back lines with the kite stalled and launch from a clamshelled state on the wing with the wingtips held down.

An icescrew, webbing and biner are key either way.

See the pic. This is the ice we usually get arely season. That's my 15m tail stalled in winds gusting to about 20mph. The first day on it that I really got to play with the trim.

You should always have 2 ice screws. One for launching and one on you incase things go bad out on the ice. It can make a day ender into a simple minor hiccup.
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Bladerunner » February 3rd, 2011, 1:55 am

Hardwater Kiter wrote:Make sure you're not launching like that in twitchy winds.

You should always have 2 ice screws. One for launching and one on you incase things go bad out on the ice. It can make a day ender into a simple minor hiccup.



YES, As I mentioned this method went bad for me in sketchy winds but I had not attached to a safety.

It was soft ice and the 10m Charger it was O.K.at 1st , then a lull followed by a return of wind and the kite started hunting violently . That wind and the 15m Syn should make for a nice slow trip up.
Arcs In my bag : Synergy - 15m, 10m , Phantom - 18m, F-arc 1200 , S-arc 460, T-arc 1.3

I Ride: Skis, Coyote Rollerblades, ATB , Buggy and Surf ( in that order )
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » February 3rd, 2011, 12:07 pm

LOL "hunting violently".

That's pretty much a dead on accurate description of what can happen.
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Andreas » February 3rd, 2011, 2:20 pm

Thanks guys :)
I understand the hazards that comes with launching the kite with the bar attached to a solid object.
This is one wrong way of doing it ;) Poor man :mrgreen:



Actually I had the bar behind the pole with the depower line in max power position, but obviosly it wasn't enough to keep the upper tip stalled.

HwK, in your video Black Ice, at 0.33, it looks like you have the weight on the upper tip in clamshell position. How do you get it off in the launching moment?




BR / Andreas
C-QUAD 3.2, C-QUAD 4.2, ARC 1120, ARC 460, Waterfoil 3.6 (Now rep :-) ), Flysurfer MastAir 16, Vade Retro Satana 7 m2 (under rep), VenomII 16 (waiting for rep), Synergy 15.

Top speed on skies: 71,0 km/h or 44.1 mph (feb 24 -2011, Syn 15)
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » February 3rd, 2011, 2:59 pm

I do. The blower is in my pack and the pack is on the ends of the trailing edge spar pocket. When I want to launch I just give the center lines a good pull which pivots the kite under the pack and towards me. The wind opens up the tips at the leading edge and the kite moves to an upright position and opens. Then another tug and she's flyin.

As long as the tips are together she won't launch. And in the shifty winds we get it allows the kite to move to the best position for a hot launch with launching accidently. Not fool proof, you always keep and eye on it but it's been working well for us for years.
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby lejonklou » February 8th, 2011, 12:43 am

Bladerunner wrote:Have you got an ice screw ? 2 is better!

What type or brand of ice screw do you recommend?

I launched my Chargers last summer this way with 2 simple soil screws. Worked so well I'd rather not launch any other way in the future. Just so convenient being on the kite side when it rises to zenith and then just go to the bar and hook in.
Best regards,
Fredrik Lejonklou
Uppsala, Sweden
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » February 8th, 2011, 2:17 pm

Can't go wrong with Black Diamond.
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Bladerunner » February 9th, 2011, 12:40 am

Mine are black diamond, I bought them at Mountian Equipment Co-op
http://www.mec.ca/Main/home.jsp?bmForm= ... earch.y=10
Arcs In my bag : Synergy - 15m, 10m , Phantom - 18m, F-arc 1200 , S-arc 460, T-arc 1.3

I Ride: Skis, Coyote Rollerblades, ATB , Buggy and Surf ( in that order )
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Andreas » February 14th, 2011, 3:19 pm

lejonklou wrote:I launched my Chargers last summer this way with 2 simple soil screws. Worked so well I'd rather not launch any other way in the future. Just so convenient being on the kite side when it rises to zenith and then just go to the bar and hook in.


Hi lejonklou! Long time no see. Don't you miss your VII13 ;)

You did use soil screws!? This "new" self launching tecniq might allmost be evulotionary, one should be able to start from a very tight spot with small margins in a safe way :ugeek:

Thoose ice screews are expensive, I don't really wantto pay for ice climbing safety. Arn't there any simpler/cheeper alternetives?

BR
C-QUAD 3.2, C-QUAD 4.2, ARC 1120, ARC 460, Waterfoil 3.6 (Now rep :-) ), Flysurfer MastAir 16, Vade Retro Satana 7 m2 (under rep), VenomII 16 (waiting for rep), Synergy 15.

Top speed on skies: 71,0 km/h or 44.1 mph (feb 24 -2011, Syn 15)
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby lejonklou » February 15th, 2011, 12:00 pm

Hi Andreas!

I've been meaning to call you for many weeks now. Will do so this evening! Yes, I did miss the V2 13 the other day on the ice. I remember it was a great park and ride kite last winter when I did a long trip across the lake. The Charger is more speedy and aggressive, constantly inviting me to throw it back to make a little jump. Lots of fun and probably what most people want, but a different ride.

Yes, the soil screws worked great. Don't work in sand, though, then you need two sand anchors. Those are available reasonably priced, but they are more bulky to carry around than the soil screws.

I agree those climbing ice screws are a bit too expensive.
Best regards,
Fredrik Lejonklou
Uppsala, Sweden
Chargers 12 and 15 on Navigator bar
Mako original and wide / Snowboard
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Hardwater Kiter » February 15th, 2011, 10:31 pm

Kites and lives are more expensive than a good ice screw.

Last weekend my freind Gary Kjelleren caught up with a small Bomba that someone lost. It was about 1/2 mile out when he stopped it and anchored the leash with an ice screw.

It was too windy to try to pack it or tow it while on our kites. The screw enabled the the owner to make the long walk out and recover the kite. Otherwise it would have been lost somewhere on Lake Champlain.

How much would it cost to replace the kite? What if someone got injured by a loose kite cruising across the lake?

A $50-60 ice screw is cheap insurance I think. I won't ride w/o my screw any more than I would without a helmet.
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Re: How to launch on slippery ice?

Postby Andreas » February 16th, 2011, 2:09 pm

I see your point HwK. It's just that my budget don't allow it and I think I'll be at least a bit safer with a cheeper quality ice screew vs. no ice screw. I found some cheeper at e-bay.

Screw that ice ;)
C-QUAD 3.2, C-QUAD 4.2, ARC 1120, ARC 460, Waterfoil 3.6 (Now rep :-) ), Flysurfer MastAir 16, Vade Retro Satana 7 m2 (under rep), VenomII 16 (waiting for rep), Synergy 15.

Top speed on skies: 71,0 km/h or 44.1 mph (feb 24 -2011, Syn 15)
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